The Least from Floodgate Productions on Vimeo.
OUCH!!!!!
Next is excerpts from a blog that I check out from time to time. His points are about tithing. I have heard this type of sermon many many times.
12 reasons why you don’t like sermons about money. Chris Elrod
Over the years I have discovered that no other subject brings more disagreement and heated conversations than when I preach about money. People get mad…they get defensive…they become defiant…and some even leave the church. I’ve also discovered over the years why this happens…and have taken the time to make a list of 12 reasons why some people don’t like sermons about money. By the way…if you think I’m writing this about you…or to you…you are correct.
1. You don’t give. - 90% of the people that get upset about sermons on money do so because they don’t give. The sermon hits too close to home, makes them feel guilty…and makes them have to confront their sin.
Read the rest of the post at the following link. Chris Elrod's Blog
After reading the post..... it didn't set exactly right with me and as I usually do...... I read the comments. The following comments made me think a bit about the sermon that I hear most often over the years or the statements that I hear most often over the years about tithing.
Here are those comments:
Does your church teach that you are to follow the Old Testament law? I thought the law ended at the cross.
Tithing was an Old Testament law that ended at the cross along with the Levitical priesthood per Hebrews 7:5,12,18. In Malachi 3:7 God makes it clear He is speaking about not following His ordinances (in Numbers 18).
Do YOU follow God’s ordinances in Numbers 18 – take the tithe to the Levites, those who receive the tithe can own no land, etc. etc.? Do YOU follow God’s definition of His tithe in Leviticus 27:30-33 – crops and animals raised on the Holy land?
According to The Word, those who put themselves under the law will be cursed by the law.
The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve than giving ten percent.
I can give you two good reasons why many don’t like your sermons about money. You are teaching what church leaders came up with in the second half of the 1800s – CHANGING God’s definition of His tithe from GOD’S increase of crops and animals to man’s increase, and CHANGING God’s directions to take the tithe to the Levites to take the tithe to the church.
Gary Arnold - August 19, 2010 at 12:35 pm
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5.
I completely agree with Gary. Chris, I encourage you to read Malachi and understand the context of that book before using it as a basis for tithing.
Also, through your Reasons #7 and #8 you’re basically calling folks who volunteer their time while not giving money “thieves” and that is absolutely ridiculous.
Josh - August 19, 2010 at 1:58 pm
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6.
A few thoughts.
Matthew 5:17-18 states Christ came to fulfill the law and not abolish it. Subsequently, the introduction of Christ in the New Testament does not mean that we are exempt from the Old Testament laws. For example, Mark 12:28-31 describes Christ instructing His followers to love God first and others second. This verse reinforces the law found in Leviticus 19:18. Alternately, Christ taught us (parables, miracles) there are new areas of focus for those who follow Him. For example, see The Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20 that represents a new direction for those who claim God. This is different from Old Testament accounts of God instructing His people to destroy all foreigners (Deuteronomy 7:1-5).
On to tithing…
I interpret your reference to Philippians 4:19 within the broader context of the section (Phillipians 4). Paul is thanking the Phillipians for being generous and sending him, Paul, gifts. Paul isn’t talking about the Phillipians giving to God.
Here are other NT scriptures about giving. Please note they do not specify an amount:
1 Cor 16:1-2
1 Now about the collection for God’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do.2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
2 Corinthians 9:6-8
6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
While I understand your passion to teach your flock, I view your teaching as incomplete. It’s typical in modern churches. I believe the cause of the issue isn’t the hearts of the people, but the financial overhead burden of the church. In my opinion, churches should not own any property. Pastors shouldn’t be paid a salary, either. The NT model is vastly different from our current implementation of church.
I suggest those interested in another view of church read “If The Church Were Christian” by Philip Gulley.
Keith - August 19, 2010 at 10:33 pm
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7.
Some final thoughts, Chris… in response to your #8 and #9 reasons.
In Malachi 3, the rightful recipients of the tithe were the widows, the fatherless, and strangers. Israel was ignoring the needs of these 3 groups by withholding her tithes. The real message of Malachi 3 is that God opposes the oppression of the poor.
So, in the context of Malachi 3, it is my understanding that the tithes were given to support widows, the strangers, and the Levites… who owned absolutely nothing.
Again, I encourage you to look at the contexts before using these ancient passages as basis for arguing that Christians should give 10% of their income. As Keith mentioned above, I also think the real issue here is the financial overhead burden of the church. I don’t see a problem with asking members to give money to fund certain things the church needs, but I would encourage pastors to do so without manipulating scripture.
Josh - August 19, 2010 at 11:12 pm
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8.
Keith said, “Matthew 5:17-18 states Christ came to fulfill the law and not abolish it.”
This is where some education in law is useful. What does fulfill mean? What does abolish mean?
Let me give an example. A legal contract is enforceable under the law. Let’s say you hire a contractor to build a swimming pool in your back yard. Once the contractor has completed the job, and everything in that contract has been completed, the contract has been fulfilled. The contractor’s job is to fulfill the contract, not abolish it. He fulfills it by completing the terms, bringing it to an end.
Consider:
Hebrews 8:13 (KJV) – In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Colossians 2:14 (KJV) – Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Galatians 5:18 (KJV) – But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Galatians 3:19 (KJV) – Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. In other words, until Jesus came
and fulfilled the law.
Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up untofaith which should
afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be
justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:10-14 (KJV)
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed
is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to
do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just
shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is
written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we
might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gary Arnold - August 19, 2010 at 11:17 pm
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Gary Arnold has a website and on his comments his name was highlighted as all commenter's are when they put a website in the URL box while typing a comment in to any blog. Here is that website. Gary Arnold
FYI: The original poster of the blog has since deleted all of the comments and made derogatory comments about the comments that were made. I knew this was going to happen so I copied the entire text of the blog and saved it. Couple of points here. If you are going to have a blog...... moderate the comments. If you do not agree with them don't publish them. If you do allow them to be published and they are just a different view and are in good taste and form. Then DON'T DELETE THEM!! If you allow comments to be published or you moderate and post comments do not go back and delete them especially if you have actually responded to them. Your readers will know and it looks dishonest. It is your blog you don't have to defend anything if you don't want. But don't cover up what you have already allowed to be said unless it is obscene or inappropriate.
Next is a post from a blog that I also read.....
Proving John Wesley Wrong
In the 1700s John Wesley realized something frightening about Christians I’ve only just learned about myself in the last few years.
In a sermon titled “The Inefficacy of Chrisianity” Wesley, founder of the Methodist Church, cried out:
“I am distressed! I know not what to do! …true, scriptural Christianity has a tendency, in the process of time, to undermine and destroy itself.” Read the rest of it at..... Shaun Groves
I don't think we do a good job of proving Wesley wrong at all. I think as a whole we prove him right.... day after day. These things fit together for me in this way.
I don't think we do what we need to do as the Church
There are more non-profit organizations that are not Christian based reaching people in need than ,even most, Churches are and they have a better percentage of amount per dollar that actually goes to the needy.
I think we preach and teach religion and what man has created and not true scripture in many cases or at least manipulate them for our own purpose.
If so many others see this----- even Wesley hundreds of years ago. Why are we not doing something different.
Finally I want to leave you with this...... a video that has hope and a call to make something happen.
Well what do you think. I feel kinda woozy...
It was not my original intention to go back and delete the comments on my blog. I have no real problem with people disagreeing with me or things I post about. The problem became that I DID NOT respond to any of the comments about my tithing post and that seemed to make some people pretty mad. The emails coming in and comments that were being made over on my Facebook account...as well as the some of the ones on my blog...were pretty hateful. It was not the first time it had happened...but it was the last.
ReplyDeleteBy the way...your reprint of the comments above are not the entire discussion. You failed to publish a few:
1. The three that agreed with my stance on tithing.
2. The one that began to question pastor's salaries, the mission of the church I pastor and accountability of church leadership (which are WAY off track of what the post was about).
3. The one that took personal shots at Gary Arnold (I don't know Gary...but I respect the argument he gave...too bad someone else didn't).
Maybe you missed them...I don't know...but it was those...and not the ones published above that caused me to delete the whole thing.
Hey Pastor Elrod….. thanks for stopping by my blog. You are right I did not post all of the comments. The purpose of the comments that I did post were stated prior to the posting. “The following comments made me think a bit about the sermon that I hear most often over the years or the statements that I hear most often over the years about tithing.”
ReplyDeleteI posted the comments that actually made me think about it as you can see from the above comments.
My intentions were to put the comments that specifically contrast the position that you took with your 12 points. I don’t think your 12 points are new, you are in very good company with many other pastors that view it in the same way. It doesn’t set well with me for the reasons that I already posted. I did see the posts that were in agreement with your sermon, I am sure there are others as well that agree with your stance.
My reason for stating that the posts were deleted and adding my little diatribe about not doing it, is because I wanted my readers that went to your blog and saw NO COMMENTS, to know that I was aware of it before hand, and that the comments that I posted were copied previously. This was done to eliminate questions about where the comments came from. I do think it creates questions for the readers of any blog when all of the posts are deleted. Again I feel strongly that comments should be moderated to prevent inappropriate content. I would have deleted the posts that were of an offensive nature. I would place a note that they were deleted by the admin of the blog or you and left the ones that followed etiquette but disagreed with your stance.
I did see a comment that stated the commenter did not personally think pastors should take a salary. I did not see any other questioning of pastors salaries or any comments that questioned the mission of your church, I did see comments that questioned the mission of churches and overhead expenses etc. I saw none that took personal shots at Gary Arnold.
I read your blog often. I read it for a reason, usually I connect with a portion of what you are saying. I don’t agree with everything but I wouldn’t expect that to happen with anyone on a regular basis. It’s just the way things are. I understand your mission and your direction as stated on your blog and in previous posts for you church.
I do think the tone of your post was combative, ultimately resulting in that type of response from others. I also feel that your post made about Comments off had a series of insults slung at others that is not the highroad, nearly all of the points on that post could be made with out insulting others. Just my thoughts, I look forward to reading your blog in the future.